Lloyd D. McCarthy, author of “In-Dependence from Bondage: Claude McKay and Michael Manley: Defying the Ideological Clash and Policy Gaps in African Diaspora Relations,” is being interviewed by Juanita Watson, Assistant Editor of Reader Views.
Juanita: Thanks for taking the time to talk with us today Lloyd. We are very interested in hearing about your book “In-Dependence from Bondage: Claude McKay and Michael Manley: Defying the Ideological Clash and Policy Gaps in African Diaspora Relations.” Would you start by telling us what your book is about?
Lloyd: “In-Dependence” From Bondage is a new book about the worldviews of the well-known Afro-Caribbean novelist, and poet, Claude McKay and that of another well-known Afro-Caribbean politician from Jamaica, Michael N. Manley. Claude McKay’s works are believed to have ignited what is called the Harlem Literary Renaissance. Michael Manley was the Caribbean politician whose ideas and domestic and international political activity lifted the political awareness of many people in Jamaica, while raising concerns among powerful state and non-state international actors having some form of business or political relations with Jamaica.
“In-Dependence” pulls together the vision and ideas of McKay and Manley as expressed in their art, politics and writings. It highlights their struggles and desire for the self-determination of people in the African Diaspora and globally. “In-Dependence” From Bondage also examines the development of what today is called globalization (capitalism), through the worldviews of McKay and Manley.
Juanita: This is a very interesting pairing of two legendary Afro-Caribbeans – a poet and a politician. Why did you choose Claude McKay and Michael Manley?
Lloyd: I realized that both McKay’s art and Michael Manley’s politics have had a tremendous influence on people worldwide—ordinary people and the international elites. First, McKay’s 1928 novel, Home to Harlem, is believed to be the first book by an African-American writer to look at the lives of ordinary working class people living in Harlem.
Second, I wanted to understand what influenced the passion that one observes in the reading of McKay’s poetry. For example his famous poem, “If We Must Die” which was quoted by Winston Churchill during the Second World War, was used to motivate British troupes to fight fascist Germany.
Third, in the case of Michael Manley, here was a privileged Jamaican politician. Yet, he showed a tremendous understanding and passion for uplifting downtrodden people in Jamaica and internationally. He was a firm believer in true democracy and equality for all people.
Fourth, in spite of strong and powerful international and parochial opposition, Manley provided spectacular and unwavering leadership and support for the movement to overthrow all apartheid regimes in Africa—South Africa.
Finally, both Claude McKay and Michael Manley expressed a vision and showed a grasp of political affairs that was global in dimension. This sharply contrasted with the parochialism and nationalism exhibited by their peers, the majority of artists and politicians of their time.
Juanita: What were the similar world views of McKay and Manley?
Lloyd: Claude McKay and Michael Manley through their art and politics demonstrated that they were true globalists—firm believers in the inter-connections of the world and equality and justice for all people irrespective of race, color, class or creed.
First, they viewed international politics or international relations from a historical perspective—particularly the continuous development of Capitalism.
Second, they shared a common vision of bringing ordinary people to the social, economic and political dining table—to assert their deep democratic rights for liberty, equality, and justice.
Third, they were concerned about how power was distributed in society and between societies. I guess they believed in a just, fair and level playing field.
Juanita: What specific issues are addressed in your book “In-Dependence from Bondage”?
Lloyd: In-Dependence from Bondage, through the lens of McKay and Manley, culminates in the examination of the impact of globalization on human development in the African Diaspora in the current period—primarily after the end of the Cold War and between 1989 and 2003. Of course, globalization is capitalism, as led by a number of international institutions, primarily the World Bank.
Juanita: What type of research did you do to prepare for writing your book? How far back do you go in your book?
Lloyd: From the perspective of Claude McKay and Michael Manley, the analysis of the historical development of capitalism or globalization begins with Columbus’ landing on the Caribbean shores. This early history is provided as an appropriate historical context for McKay’s and Manley’s views. Manley in some of his own books, referenced this historical period.
I have used most of the written works of Manley and McKay, including biographies. Additionally, I have used McKay’s fiction and non-fictions. Home to Harlem, Banjo and Banana Bottom, as well as seven of his poems. In the study, I have also used several US declassified documents to gain further insight into historical events and the attitude of the political elites toward those events.
Juanita: “In-Dependence from Bondage” focuses primarily in a Jamaican context. How does it relate to the collective African Diaspora?
Lloyd: In-Dependence from Bondage is about the entire African Diaspora and McKay and Manley’s ideas. The Jamaican context is provided only so far as it enables one to locate Manley and McKay in their biographical and historical context. Their worldviews are worldwide in dimension. Can you talk about Mohandas Gandhi’s ideas without mentioning India, or discuss Martin Luther King Jr, without speaking about the African-American experience?
McKay’s most important works were influenced by his life and relationship with working class African-Americans and other immigrants in America. Manley’s international politics took him all over Europe, to Africa, throughout the Caribbean and to many countries in the Americas.
Their ideas are global, universal. In-Dependence from Bondage is therefore a book about their ideas for the African Diaspora, the oppressed people of the south and the worldwide dispossessed.
Juanita: Lloyd, would you explain your use of the terms North and South?
Lloyd: The North-South divide refers to the economic and political relations existing between developed nations, located primarily in the North and poor developing, oppressed nations, located primarily in the southern hemisphere.
Juanita: How is globalization affecting the African Diaspora and the South? (
Lloyd: The United Nations Human Development Reports for the period 1990 to 2003 provide empirical data to analyze how globalization is affecting the African Diaspora. The data shows that poor countries in the African Diaspora are experiencing a decline in their human development standards overall. In contrast, the rich countries of the north are achieving higher levels of human development.
Juanita: Who really is benefiting from globalization?
Lloyd: Countries in the North. Primarily their propertied and professional classes. And especially the Forbes Magazine’s 950 richest billionaires. Clearly not the poor, not the working poor, not landless peasants, not teachers or nurses, not the majority of the people in the African Diaspora and the South. The majority of the world’s working people are not reaping the benefits of globalization. Neither Michael Manley nor Claude McKay would be surprised by these trends.
Juanita: What were McKay’s and Manley’s thoughts on the struggle against Imperialism and the Global Elites? (
Lloyd: McKay and Michael Manley supported and defended the right of self-determination and deep democracy for all people oppressed and exploited by corporations, imperialism and the global elites.
Michael Manley was opposed to the Soviet Union’s invasion of Afghanistan and its failed attempt to colonize that country. Claude McKay wrote about the brutal aspects of America’s invasion of Haiti in his book Home to Harlem.
Juanita: Where does the United States fit in this context?
Lloyd: As Samir Amin put it, “the strategic convergence of national imperialisms is under the hegemony of the United States.” The move to entrench capitalism in the African Diaspora since the demise of European colonialism and the demise of the USSR, is being led by the business and political elites of the United States.
Juanita: Lloyd, at this point, is this a race issue or a class issue?
Lloyd: I read an article somewhere recently arguing that the problem of the 21st Century is still the problem of the Color. WEB Du Bois had suggested that the problem of the 20th Century was the problem of the color line.
There is a great element of truth in this analysis. While the American elite is known to have great philanthropists included in its numbers, the net effect of their collective economic and social policies is racist. They use racism as a strategic weapon against black workers, Hispanic workers and other workers of color as it suits them.
However, the war against all workers by the owners of capital has never ceased. American corporations are waging a war against all American workers by closing down their operations here and relocating to poor countries where they can reap the benefits of cheap labor.
Absolutely, the issue is race as well as class.
Juanita: Where are the biggest gaps in the African Diaspora relations?
Lloyd: Throughout “In-Dependence” From Bondage, I am alluding to the Policy Gap.
I believe the term was used by Robert Pastor, former national security advisor on Latin America (1977-81) under the Carter Administration. He was referring to the huge difference between US Global Policies and the “special relationship” that Latin America has tried to develop with the USA. He called it a policy gap.
I am referring to this policy difference.
First, it is the un-democratic policies that strengthen corporate rights and weaken people and their governments—undermining the deepening of democracy.
Second, it is the global policies of countries such as the USA that ignore Africa and Latin America—leaving Africa and Latin America to conclude that their countries and peoples would be better off if they are ignored.
Finally, it is those policies that are wasting billions abroad, while continuing to ignore the victims of Katrina here at home.
The well-known Caribbean journalist, Rickey Singh alluded to a blatant expression of this policy gap with respect to the Caribbean. He calls it the USA contempt for the Caribbean. It is expressed in a number of US policies toward poor countries, Latin America and the Caribbean. It is seen in the US’s policy on terrorism, immigration, trade and other economic relations. Consequently, the Public Relation (PR) trips of US Presidents to Latin America, the Caribbean or Africa, are seen as just that, another PR trip—too little too late!
Juanita: Is it possible for the peoples of the African Diaspora to survive globalization?
Lloyd: Yes, they will. After enduring a long period when the working masses are once again reduced to slave-like conditions; when the natural environment is more ravaged; and when human rights again are severely subordinated to the rights of capital and corporations, change will come. But the working people in the African Diaspora will not be alone. We can expect these conditions to appear in the ranks of the working people in the rich countries of the North as well.
These conditions are already here. Professionals in the North are already being reduced to the ranks of blue collar workers. And blue collars are being displaced, as manufacturing and service jobs are being sent to India and China in search of cheaper and cheaper labor.
Soon, which workers will be able to afford the products of their labor? Those in the South already cannot afford the products of their labor. Eventually, the workers of the North will find themselves in the same situation. This shift is inevitable with the net beneficiary being multi-national corporations. What then?
I do not believe that globalization is an ascendant world system, but a declining one. In the interim, it appears to be propped-up by militarism, vast cultural and intellectual propaganda, and the wasting away of millions of working people all over the world.
Juanita: Lloyd, you were born in Jamaica, an island that has produced many political, social, spiritual and significantly influential people through recent history? Why is this happening in Jamaica?
Lloyd: I do not believe that it is unique to Jamaica. Wherever injustice, immorality and barbarism are present, people such as Harriet Tubman, Mohandas Gandhi, Martin Luther King, Jr. and prophets will emerge from the people. Like-wise the Jamaican people, having endured hundreds of years of oppression—from slavery to globalization—produce visionaries such as Marcus Garvey, Bob Marley, Claude McKay and Michael Manley.
Juanita: Do you think there is viable possibility for the African Diaspora to reach “independence from bondage”?
Lloyd: It is not only a viable possibility; it is the inevitable outcome for which we struggle: self-determination and deep democracy for the people of the African Diaspora and the global masses.
Juanita: Do you offer any solutions in your book?
Lloyd: I personally do not prescribe solutions. However, as a product of western slavery, colonialism and imperialism and other forms of tyranny, I join the people of the African Diaspora in their demands for self-determination and deep democracy.
Claude McKay and Michael Manley made some very specific and general recommendations about how to achieve self-determination and deep democracy:
One, they advocated social and economic justice and Power for the world’s people not more power to big corporations.
Two, in the South and in the African Diaspora, everywhere they advocated a movement toward socialist globalization not capitalist, multinational corporations, globalization.
Three, they believed that media, owned and controlled by big corporations, serves corporate interest. The world’s masses, people in the African Diaspora and the South, must develop and control their own media and use it to further their collective educational, economic and political interests.
Four, McKay believed that labor unions, such as the AFL-CIO, controlled by establishment political parties serve the interest of their big financial bankers. Working people must establish and control their own labor unions.
Five, Manley advocated the formation of stronger African Diaspora, South-South economic corporations to reduce dependence on the current global economic powers and to advance their collective interest.
Juanita: Lloyd, what is the underlying message of “In-Dependence from Bondage”?
Lloyd: I believe that we are at another crossroad in history, like the ripening of the Civil Rights Movement, when with just a little more effort—struggle, a qualitative change in world affairs toward self determination and deep democracy can be achieved.
Or, at this juncture, a further erosion of the progress already made will occur. Our elites and the multinational corporations are moving aggressively to advance a global agenda, globalization– that is not in the best interest of working people in the African Diaspora.
Amidst all of this, there seems to be a great deal of apathy on our part, even among the so called progressive people in the African Diaspora. So, “In-Dependence” from Bondage is a wake up call to continue the struggle towards self-determination and deeper democracy. This is the underlining message of “In-Dependence from Bondage.”
Juanita: Lloyd, on a personal note, how have the lives of these two men influenced your own life?
Lloyd: Claude McKay and Michael Manley shook my consciousness. Through their lives, art and politics, they made me aware that the injustices personally experienced and observed—the condition of the poor and oppressed, worldwide—was not created by the will of “God,” but by the designs of men and the development of society. And it will take the will and struggle of men and women to change it.
I was first introduced to some of McKay’s poetry by my primary school (middle school) principal—Clinton R. Muschette (dec’d). I was introduced to the more romantic, less political ones, with the exception of “If We Must Die.” Strangely, that was enough to arouse my interest in McKay’s life and works.
Michael Manley introduced policies, in Jamaica, that made it possible for thousands of children of the working poor, like me, to obtain High School and College Education in Jamaica. Manley’s education reform program of the 1970s was only one of the numerous programs that he introduced to address the inequalities in Jamaica created by the legacies of slavery, colonialism and the post-independence polices of the governments before Manley’s time.
Juanita: How can readers find out more about you and your endeavors?
Lloyd: Readers can go to my web site: www.in-dependence.com. There they will find some internationalist-type articles and sometimes my personal commentary on current events.
Juanita: Lloyd, thank you for the opportunity to interview you for “In-Dependence From Bondage.” You have provided fascinating discourse that will certainly educate and shed light on very relevant global issues. We encourage readers to look for your book at local and online bookstores. Before we depart, do you have any closing thoughts?
Lloyd: The current political leadership in the South is working on alternative strategies to the present kind of globalization that we are talking about. Bolivia, Cuba, Nicaragua and Venezuela are the first members of a new political and economic initiative called the Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas (ALBA).
The main goal of the “Bolivarian Alternative” is to lift the countries of the South out of the immoral and devastating level of poverty that is ravaging their populations.
The ALBA is led by Venezuela. It is an alternative to the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) which has benefited primarily multinational corporations in the North.
The Bolivarian Alternative proposes:
One, a continental literacy plan;
Two, a Latin American plan for free health care;
Three, an education scholarship program for Latin America and the Caribbean;
Four, a Social Emergency Fund;
Five, a Development Bank for the South;
Six, a Regional Petroleum Company; and
Seven, a regional media, communication and transportation: including plans for highways, trains, shipping, airlines and telecommunications.
Jamaica’s Prime Minister, Honorable Portia Simpson may soon sign on to the agreement. The people of the region welcome the initiative. This was a vision of Michael Manley. The Bolivarian Alternative, if successful, could well be the kind of initiative that shows people in the African Diaspora and in the rest of the world, how to cooperate to achieve self-determination and deeper democracy.